tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706370502716265832.post7697264104843567693..comments2023-07-17T08:34:08.931-07:00Comments on Life Under the Sun: The poison of the therapeutic gospelStephen Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07041412126012825720noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706370502716265832.post-38723278173756444012008-08-02T21:08:00.000-07:002008-08-02T21:08:00.000-07:00No, David, you did not offend. Please forgive me i...No, David, you did not offend. Please forgive me if I implied so. <br><br>Thanks for reading (& commenting) on Stephen's blog so faithfully. I love reading your input!Nataliehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04950347004903207760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706370502716265832.post-47083471454756255902008-08-02T20:38:00.000-07:002008-08-02T20:38:00.000-07:00Hi Natalie,I hope I did not offend. I have more t...Hi Natalie,<br><br>I hope I did not offend. <br><br>I have more than once had pre's tell me, "A great point of evangelism is to tell people they won't have to go through the suffering of the tribulation." I'm not sure we can take that position when when so many believers are enduring great suffering, to the point of death.<br><br>I do understand the increase in evil described in Revelation. Jesus spoke of us having "tribulation" in this world, and Revelation speaks of believers being sealed to go through the tribulation. I do not see a place in Revelation where Believers are pulled out.<br><br>But my thought really was that we Christians should simply be careful in America not to presume all is well or faith is easy just because we live in an island of freedom.<br><br>I did not mean to come down so hard on pre-trib. Most of our church is pre-trib. <br><br>thanks.David Squyreshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16632008924923459612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706370502716265832.post-5928645003871315482008-08-01T14:14:00.000-07:002008-08-01T14:14:00.000-07:00Thanks Natalie for your comments and for answering...Thanks Natalie for your comments and for answering a lot more thoroughly than I probably would have! <br><br>I agree with David that it is wrong of pre-tribbers to tout the rapture as an "escape hatch" from suffering and persecution. This is very insensitive to our brothers and sisters around the globe (some even here in the States) who suffer immensely for their faith. <br><br>However, I do believe as Natalie pointed out that suffering, persecution, injustice, economic crises, and natural disasters will grow exponentially during the coming Tribulution. Jer. 30:5-9 likens this period to a woman in labor. This intense affliction is directed at Israel and will eventually bring about a national revival (cf. Rom. 11:26).Stephen Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07041412126012825720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706370502716265832.post-85249266598419384482008-07-31T22:53:00.000-07:002008-07-31T22:53:00.000-07:00My first thought after reading David's post wa...My first thought after reading David's post was, hey, I'm pre-trib, and that's not what I believe. But then I thought, maybe I've got the wrong technical name for it in my head. Of course I haven't studied it all out like you guys have.<br><br>Well, Stephen said that pre-trib IS the name for what we believe (I thought so). Like I said, "there is no suffering before Christ's return" is not what I believe. Here's why.<br><br>I agree that we in America, myself included, sometimes forget about, make light of, or (as in the quote Stephen left) disregard the persecution of the saints in other countries. However, persecution can easily fit within my pre-trib thinking.<br><br>The Bible does not say that Christ will rapture us out before any pain and suffering occur, but before the HORRORS of the tribulation period occur. Yes, there have been major horrors of persecution already. But persecution is not the only type of horror.<br><br>Rev. 6:6 talks about worldwide famine/inflation. Some areas have seen that, but not worldwide.<br><br>Rev. 6:8 says that 1/4 of the WORLD'S population will be wiped out "with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." (100-25%=75 remaining population) This has not happened yet.<br><br>Rev. 6:12-17 talks about MAJOR natural disasters, one on top of the next. We have natural disasters, and some of them are major, but not the way John describes them.<br><br>Then comes Rev. 8:7-8, more natural disasters, taking away another 1/3 of the earth's already diminished population. (75-33%=50.25 remaining population) This hasn't happened yet.<br><br>Rev. 8:10-11 talks about water that is no longer palatable. v.12 goes on to describe the celestial beings as disappearing so that 1/3 of the day would be in darkness and 1/3 of the night would also be in darkness. Out here in the desert, we can walk outside, day or night, and see that hasn't happened yet.<br><br>After describing some plagues Rev. 9:18a says "A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues". (50.25-33%=33.667 remaining population). That leaves us with only 1/3 of our starting population remaining on the earth. This is certainly not the case. <br><br>Well, I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Yes, persecution is horrible -- and I don't ever wish to go through what some of my brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering in this present age. And persecution will definitely be a part of the tribulation period (Rev. 6:11). Nevertheless, I can confidently say that we have NOT seen the HORRORS of the tribulation. And praise God we won't have to!!!!Nataliehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04950347004903207760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706370502716265832.post-57837397581124761582008-07-31T13:48:00.000-07:002008-07-31T13:48:00.000-07:00Wow! that is exactly what I shared with our churc...Wow! that is exactly what I shared with our church Sunday.<br><br>I was talking about end times and shared that I am not a pre-trib person because I believe it is wrong for us in America to say "there is no suffering before Christ return" when around the world our brother and sisters are being murdered for their faith. About 50 thousand people a year die for their faith! And we in America are preaching health and wealth. God is waking me up. Thank you for your post!David Squyreshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16632008924923459612noreply@blogger.com